Digital Equality: How an open Web can contribute to a more Equal world?
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Goodness of fitMereologyContent (media)Expected valueDifferent (Kate Ryan album)AreaWeightElectronic mailing listMultiplication signDissipationComputer animationJSONXMLUMLLecture/Conference
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Observational studyLevel (video gaming)Formal languageMultiplication signContent (media)Group actionAlphabet (computer science)Condition numberTranslation (relic)Order (biology)InternetworkingVapor barrierInternet service providerEqualiser (mathematics)StatisticsWebsiteWeb 2.0GenderLecture/Conference
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WeightOpen setDistribution (mathematics)Level (video gaming)TelecommunicationSpeech synthesisCivil engineeringContent (media)InternetworkingInequality (mathematics)MereologyMassRule of inferenceIterationField (computer science)Form (programming)Equaliser (mathematics)PreconditionerWeb 2.0Regulator geneWeb pageService (economics)Food energyCore dumpPerspective (visual)3 (number)Logical constantComputer animation
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Cartesian coordinate systemMereologyType theoryFacebookFlow separationPhysical systemLine (geometry)Dimensional analysisInternetworkingProjective planeBit rateEndliche ModelltheorieCore dumpWeightClosed setMeeting/Interview
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Point (geometry)VotingFacebookInternetworkingSpacetimeHypermediaGame controllerLecture/Conference
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Multiplication signCycle (graph theory)Level (video gaming)Field (computer science)Moment (mathematics)Mobile WebLine (geometry)Centralizer and normalizerPhysical systemOpen setDependent and independent variablesContext awarenessOrder (biology)Web 2.0Lecture/Conference
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HypermediaNumberService (economics)Inequality (mathematics)Video gameEndliche ModelltheorieLecture/Conference
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Focus (optics)HypermediaDigitizingInformation privacyLecture/Conference
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MereologyComputer programmingFiber bundleWeightFacebookMachine visionContent (media)Information securityInstance (computer science)Series (mathematics)Multiplication signRight angleWeb 2.0TwitterMobile WebBit ratePosition operatorLecture/Conference
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Division (mathematics)Fiber bundleWeb 2.0Service (economics)InternetworkingEqualiser (mathematics)Lecture/Conference
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InternetworkingVapor barrierService (economics)Perspective (visual)Ultraviolet photoelectron spectroscopyProjective planeGoodness of fitParameter (computer programming)Similarity (geometry)Term (mathematics)Scaling (geometry)HypermediaType theoryBit rateExistenceLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Computing platformFacebookPhase transitionWireless LANParameter (computer programming)DemosceneCovering spaceComputer configurationSoftwareAreaWeightInformation privacyPresentation of a groupInternet service providerExterior algebraLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Computer networkInequality (mathematics)ResultantProjective planePower (physics)Endliche ModelltheorieState of matterSoftwareLecture/ConferenceComputer animation
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Computer networkFlow separationFunctional (mathematics)SoftwareDialectConnected spaceAreaRouter (computing)Internet service providerPeer-to-peerProduct (business)SpacetimePay televisionInternetworkingHacker (term)Computer animationLecture/Conference
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Computer networkInternetworkingConnectivity (graph theory)VideoconferencingServer (computing)Virtuelles privates NetzwerkFreewareData storage deviceService (economics)AdditionTerm (mathematics)DisintegrationIndependence (probability theory)Service (economics)SoftwareWater vaporTelecommunicationBuildingWage labourMereologyIndependence (probability theory)ConcentricFocus (optics)VideoconferencingInclined planeTerm (mathematics)Content (media)AreaData storage deviceConnected spaceCartesian coordinate systemLocal ringSoftware developerStreaming mediaDecision theoryBroadcasting (networking)AdditionRight angleInformation privacyPhysical lawExterior algebraWeightComputer animation
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GenderHacker (term)State transition systemInclusion mapAreaSoftwareSoftware developerMereologyExterior algebraProjective planeHacker (term)Multiplication signInclusion mapField (computer science)Mathematical optimizationData managementContent (media)Computer sciencePresentation of a groupChemical equationGenderPhysical lawLecture/Conference
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Event horizonDemosceneSoftwareLattice (order)Field (computer science)Software developerLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Physical systemExterior algebraCASE <Informatik>Computer programmingAreaRegulator geneVermaschtes NetzError messageWeightSoftwareLecture/Conference
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TelecommunicationForm (programming)Projective planeState of matterNumberType theoryFamilyPhysical lawLevel (video gaming)ArmQuicksortWeightInternetworkingOntologyInternet service providerLocal ringHecke operatorMeeting/Interview
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Term (mathematics)Group actionProjective planeEntire functionVapor barrierInternetworkingSurvival analysisBit rateEqualiser (mathematics)Lecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Content (media)Projective planeMixed realityVector potentialEndliche ModelltheorieBuildingInclusion mapNeighbourhood (graph theory)DialectCartesian coordinate systemSoftwareGenderInternetworkingScalabilityLecture/Conference
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InternetworkingSoftwareInclusion mapTransverse waveDimensional analysisShared memoryOnline helpEvent horizonGame controllerLecture/Conference
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SoftwareLevel (video gaming)Open setComputer hardwareArithmetic progressionPolygonInclusion mapDigitizingLecture/Conference
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Inclusion mapDigitizingDependent and independent variablesElement (mathematics)Goodness of fitSoftwarePhysical systemLecture/Conference
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SoftwareInternetworkingFormal languageProjective planeCategory of beingFacebookType theoryPhysical systemTheory of relativityFunction (mathematics)DemosceneTelecommunicationExpert systemOrder (biology)Active contour modelRegulator geneInternet service providerFreewareMeeting/Interview
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Projective planeRight angleDigitizingCASE <Informatik>InternetworkingInclusion mapMappingDampingLevel (video gaming)Content (media)Different (Kate Ryan album)Local ringWordHypothesisCentralizer and normalizerAreaNeuroinformatikPairwise comparisonDisk read-and-write headSoftwareContext awarenessLecture/Conference
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Projective planeInternetworkingInclusion mapMoment (mathematics)Internet service providerLogic synthesisAssociative propertyLecture/Conference
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Internet service providerMathematical optimizationPoint (geometry)Fiber (mathematics)State of matterService (economics)InternetworkingTotal S.A.Meeting/Interview
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Right angleMaxima and minimaSelf-organizationLecture/Conference
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Direction (geometry)TelecommunicationRegulator geneInternet service providerForm (programming)SoftwareTrailCivil engineeringInternetworkingRow (database)Perspective (visual)Forcing (mathematics)Theory of relativityQuicksortFreewareMeeting/Interview
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Inequality (mathematics)TelecommunicationCellular automatonServer (computing)WebsiteMultiplication signLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Level (video gaming)Strategy gameWeb 2.0FacebookExterior algebraInequality (mathematics)Survival analysisQuantumDigitizingEqualiser (mathematics)SoftwareLecture/Conference
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HypermediaInverse elementVarianceLecture/ConferenceComputer animation
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:16
Good morning and many, many, many thanks for being here. I know that it's really, really early and it is an honor and I hope that your expectations
00:27
are fulfilled after this panel because you woke up early to be here with us. It is a pleasure for me to welcome my panelists. We have among the best of the best thinkers in Europe in different areas.
00:43
To my left is Thomas Löninger. He is one of the, you know, you enjoy in Europe net neutrality in great part because of his efforts and the efforts of his organization, Epicentre Works. He is the director and he is based in Austria.
01:03
Kathleen Berger, who used to be part of German government and now she is gladly with civil society. She is the global engagement lead for Mozilla and Dr. Melanie Dulong-Rosne, who is one of
01:21
the leading researchers and thinkers, rethinking how the commons and especially the digital commons can help us solve the challenges of our time, inclusion, access to content and so on. So we will discuss now, while I was coming here, I was looking at numbers and I know
01:43
that it's a reality that not so many Europeans are exposed to, but imagine if in order to access the internet, you will have to give away 20% of your income, 20%. That's the average cost of internet in most of the parts of Africa.
02:00
In more than one country, it's even 50% of your monthly income to be able to connect. But not only that, I mean, when you think about digital inequalities, we are not only speaking about, oh, I cannot pay in order to, I cannot afford connectivity.
02:20
But we are speaking about more profound problems. Imagine if not only it costs 50% of your income to be able to connect to the internet, but then you find that there's no content relevant to you, that all the content on the internet is in a language that is not yours.
02:41
And it is directed to people who live in different realities. It doesn't contain any information that is relevant to your work in the fields. It shows only white people online. It shows only people who are rich and live in different realities online.
03:00
And it only invites you to consume, not to participate. Those barriers, not only lack of access, but lack of relevant content, a lack of a web where you can see yourself, are the issues that we are going to discuss today. We will discuss today in three parts.
03:22
We will not only discuss the apocalyptic panorama that is looking really, really bad for many countries in the world, but also the opportunities and how policy and technology measures can fix the problem. We will start with Kathleen. She will refer more to the human aspects on digital inequalities.
03:44
Thank you, Renata, and thank you, everyone, for being here. She was starting on the individual level, but I'm really going to focus on that because Tom is going to cover the meta level, and we do have the community level as well. So all three together, I believe, are very important when we talk about equality in the digital age.
04:02
Because for me, if I talk about equality in the digital age, I think that should translate into inclusion, but also into individual empowerment and diversity. And I think for the audience here and as a European, something that seems super obvious, but that I found needs to be restated all the time is having digital equality and making
04:23
sure that everyone is included and able to access the open web means that things are not going to stay the same online, and it also means that we won't participate, communicate, create, and innovate in the same way. There are going to be changes to how we use the internet. That's part of being open. That's part of being inclusive, and I think especially societies here need to remember
04:44
that because otherwise we're just amplifying discrepancies and differences that already exist in our societies, which kind of reflect a lot of inequalities and a lot of political disputes. So Renata has already mentioned some stats, which if I talk about inclusion, I think
05:02
we need to remember it's not just providing access. There are a lot of steps that need to be taken in order for access to be equal and to actually provide equal opportunity, and whether that's only 50% of the world population are currently online, that in itself sounds rather equal, but it's not because there's a regional discrepancy.
05:21
So in Germany, 88% of our population might be online. In Scandinavia, it's over 90. But in Ethiopia, on the other hand, it's only 4.2% of the population. And in Myanmar, it's only 2.5. So the discrepancy on the regional level is enormous, which of course has a lot of consequences for how we deal with the web.
05:43
At the same time, you mentioned affordability. That's of course a massive thing. I think with the UN, they've decided that 5% of GDP is okay for it to be affordable. But if I live on $2 a day, 5% is still way too much to actually access. So there's 58% of the world's population that simply do not have any access to anything
06:04
that's affordable on a regional level. And languages, you mentioned local content. But if I think of statistics on a global level, then Chinese is the second biggest language spoken in the world, but only 2% of online content is actually in Chinese.
06:21
It's similar to Arabic because the internet was not created with non-Latin letters and alphabets in mind. But we need to overcome that barrier in order to actually provide equal opportunity online. At the same time, 52% of websites are in English. And something we also tend to forget in communities like ours, also at a conference like
06:41
Poup Lécan, there's only 25% of the world's population that actually understand it. It might seem natural to us because we all learn it, but it's not. So working on translations is going to be crucial. And I'm sure we're going to get into this later because Renata with the Web Foundation has worked on that a lot, but gender is also a massive issue. There are studies from the Web Foundation, but also from UN Women, which find that
07:03
women are nearly 50% less likely to access the internet than men in developing countries. That's a massive barrier and we need to understand why that is happening. And without wanting to, like, we are here in Europe, so it's not, I can't tell you why this is happening, but we do need research and facts to find out how we can
07:20
be more welcoming and more inclusive because otherwise equal opportunity is never going to become a reality. You know, and the interesting part that you mentioned is, and that is relevant for Germany is, and for Europe in general, is the role of the companies because while Europe has strong regulators, but I mean, even here, it took massive effort from civil society
07:45
to get a web that is accessible for everyone everywhere with all the content. So for me, it would be very interesting to see because we see always net neutrality as a very Western problem and only relevant to the US and to Europe, but I want to explore
08:07
with you, Thomas, what is the role of net neutrality in this inequality debate and why net neutrality matters for that? Thank you. Yeah, I mean, at the core, net neutrality is all about solving the distribution problem.
08:24
It's about giving equal access to all services, allowing every startup, every idea to be globally accessible from day one on a level playing field and to have an equal exchange of ideas,
08:44
of voices, of offers, and I think that is a precondition for solving the problems that Afton has pointed out of the content problem and net neutrality focuses on the telecom side and of course, our biggest adversaries or the other side of the debate, speaking
09:03
from a pro net neutrality activist perspective, is of course, the telecom industry and we see a constant pushback, I mean, now in the US as it looks like the new open internet rules from 2015 will be appealed and this is the third iteration of net neutrality debate in the US and even now in Europe, we have now regulation, the strongest form of legal
09:26
protection for net neutrality, but even here still, the telecom industry is pushing to revert those rules and go back to a model where they would be in charge as gatekeepers to favor certain applications, to also favor certain types of using the internet and this
09:45
also is intertwined because of course, there are companies like Facebook that invest huge amounts of money to give their projects called previously internet.org, now Free Basic into the developing world and now even they are planning to expand that to the US, so
10:06
those zero rating offers are a core part of the debate, I think, that we should tackle and that also need a close look in several ways because we have systems where you pay
10:22
with your data to get free access to the whole internet like Mset and Gigato, those offers are in line with definition of net neutrality because okay, I see some advertisement and of course, they target the users, they showed it to, but still, I have the possibility
10:43
to access all of the internet. You know, it's very interesting something because you mentioned the poor pay with their data, well actually, if you analyze the situation of the world today and all the things that we are finding out about the election in the US and in Brexit voting in the UK, are you, instead of voting,
11:05
instead of paying with the data, aren't the global poor paying with their democracy actually? It is very interesting because if Facebook and if social media becomes the internet,
11:22
then we are facing a problem that is not only they are accessing a limited internet but they are accessing a limited internet that is susceptible of manipulation and is susceptible of social control. So, I want to hear if there is any reaction
11:42
from Melanie or from Kathleen about that. It's a tricky question, I don't think it's just the poor that are in danger of losing some democratic benefits, I think we have that everywhere, we see that in election cycles all the time. I do believe that what Tom has just said that we do need net neutrality to have a level playing field at the
12:03
regulatory level but what we also need and that's where the individual level comes in again and which also addresses that democracy question without skills and awareness of how do I protect myself? How do I make sure that I'm not ending up in a silo? What can I do against monopolization and against centralization? How do I actually keep the
12:21
web open? That's exactly what we need in order to counteract its basic skills to help protect our democracies, to strengthen and empower the people to have their voices heard and not just exploiting them the very first moment someone comes online, that makes it even harder but I think even here, people are not always aware of what we're
12:41
giving away and how that's affecting our political systems because we just take it for granted. So, I would see that responsibility for everyone and those who have the awareness, I see that everyone needs to teach because otherwise we won't be able to address that. Melanie? And just to briefly say, I mean this media literacy question is also generally of high importance.
13:01
Marcus Beckett had in his talk yesterday the numbers that around one cent up to 20 cent, that's what's spent per person in Germany on media literacy. So, even very developed countries are not paying enough attention to that issue. And you know there's another inequality that I have seen and I have seen even in
13:21
Europe and it's basic, basic things, provision of basic services to elderly people are only provided online and digital literacy, the focus is on little children and so it is, we are
13:40
increasing something that was supposed to be for everyone and it was supposed to be, to include is kind of excluding more and more, especially vulnerable. So, but not all is dark, no Melanie? Yes, yes. I completely agree. Media literacy and privacy literacy is completely key and instead of, yeah, thinking about problems
14:10
from net neutrality because we can access only Facebook or as part of the bundle with your mobile access, all the data are very expensive but for almost free you can access
14:28
only Facebook and Twitter and WhatsApp. So, that will reduce as you were explaining what your vision of the world and what you can access. But if you think about zero rating
14:44
in a positive way and for instance partnerships between mobile companies and Wikipedia, so that Wikipedia would be part of the bundle you get for free or similar content.
15:03
Yeah, but you know, playing devil's advocate, I want to ask Kathleen because Mozilla is the promoter of the creative web, right? And what happens in that situation, okay, you have access to Wikipedia but what are you missing out? The question is if you have access to Wikipedia
15:25
on those bundles, can you actually also write on it? Because mostly the feature phones only allow you to read. So, you're a consumer still, not a creator, not an innovator. So, to us, that's not enough, right? That gives you a hurdle and that prevents you from having equal opportunity. Just reading, being informed is one step but it's a tiny
15:45
step and it's not enough for the web that Mozilla is advocating for. To us, we believe that internet health is important but internet health also means we need to have the full diversity and it needs to be accessible, it needs to be decentralized and it needs no gatekeepers, no pay-for-play, and equal opportunity for all. So, yes,
16:03
Wikipedia is a great resource but I think what makes Wikipedia Wikipedia is that everyone is able to contribute and that's not happening in the zero-rated services. And also, in a long-term perspective, if we look at the way that new services and startups are functioning and why the internet is by far the most innovative and diverse medium that
16:26
we ever had, it is because we have very low market entry barriers and it actually only takes two nerds and a good idea to get a global service running. And if we go back to the early days of Wikipedia and imagine that Encyclopedia Britannica would have
16:42
had a zero-rated service on a similar scale as Wikipedia Zero is right now, maybe a community-driven project like Wikipedia would never have come into existence. And that's the problem even with those types of zero rating that look good on the outskirts, we are cementing the current also market monopolies and in a way, of course, Wikipedia is a market monopoly
17:05
on encyclopedias and if you read the terms of the Wikipedia Zero, it has a marketing aspect to it clearly. One of the arguments usually is, I was talking to Indian friends and they were saying like,
17:21
you know, the problem is, okay, we have Facebook as the only platform and they want to give it for free, but the problem is that the government actually will never invest in their own cover areas and so by you net neutrality Taliban, by advocating against Facebook and you privacy freaks, by advocating against Facebook, you are deprived from the
17:46
opportunity to have access at least to that. And the argument is always, oh, there's no options, but I know that you have been working in the options, so Flor is yours to explain us how to get out from this problem of not viable options.
18:05
Okay, yes, so I will have a short presentation about alternatives to commercial internet service providers, which are community networks, community wireless or sometimes not wireless networks
18:22
are not new at all, they exist since the 1990s in various countries and so I will try to think how they could answer to some questions of this panel and possibly
18:43
improve equality and provide some empowerment, give back power to the people. So these are the preliminary results of a project funded by the European Commission,
19:05
which is called Net Commons, where we study network infrastructure as a commons. So the commons is a shared resource governed by a community and it's a social and an economic
19:23
model, which is different from the state or the market. So you have several community networks in Europe, here in Germany you have Freifunk, in Italy, Ninux, in France
19:44
it's a federation of regional networks, in Catalonia, GIPHY, and so it's a way to connect routers and provide connectivity in a local area. So it matches all the cool
20:07
buzzwords around the commons because it's an alternative, it's pure production of connectivity, it relates to the ethos of do it your space, of hacker space, of maker space, it can be
20:26
managed as a cooperative or a non-profit and it can also be related to citizen science and participation. So the first advantage of this community network is that they provide
20:45
access to the internet for free or for subscription, which in principle is much cheaper than the commercial services, but not only. These community networks also provide extra
21:02
services in addition to the connectivity such as storage or messaging, IRC, video conferencing applications, solutions to host locally your content servers, VPN, and also the possibility
21:25
to stream and broadcast content which is locally produced in the area. So it promotes alternative values, it's independent as opposed to the market
21:47
concentration we discussed previously. The focus in terms of use and in the practices of these networks is to protect users rights including privacy, promote net neutrality, and
22:05
foster local development. Participants to the community networks develop many skills, so not only in climbing as you saw in the previous picture because you have to go on your rooftop
22:22
to put a router, but also in communication and community building because you have to convince your neighbors to add a node so that the network will work better. Writing the technical documentation in less technical terms also. Political and governance
22:46
skills to manage a community and take parts to decision making. Finance because you have to maybe raise funding or work with local partners, a hospital, or a library, or a school,
23:07
and with the municipality to access the underlying technical infrastructure. And also you need legal skills because you have to understand how the local law is working
23:25
in order to avoid liability in case of wrongdoings. You have to write terms of services and try to protect the privacy of the community. Advocacy would be the last skill in order to lobby
23:48
local, national, and European governments for legislations which will not impede the development of community networks and also allow their flourishing. So this is an example of an
24:08
alternative where people can be hackers and activists and be part of a local project mixing technology and politics and I really appreciate working in this project because
24:27
as a researcher I really learned from the practitioner and it's the same for my colleague. Every time we discuss with community network members we learn about our own field being IT law
24:42
or computer science network optimization for my colleagues and the management of the commons because it's an infrastructure commons to be compared with the digital commons of the content. So of course it's not perfect. It has many many challenges and I'm going to finish my
25:06
presentation with two of these challenges. The inclusion of participants who are not geeks and also gender balance. So there has been some experience to organize family-friendly events and
25:24
meetings for the community networks who meet usually every week or every month to fix problems but it's not optimum yet. Thank you Melanie. So it seems that even in this
25:44
I have just one question to you. Is it just viable in Europe or do you think that developing countries could make that happen? Yes it has been used for ICT4D in the fields of ICT
26:05
for development and it has been developed. So I presented European examples because that's my knowledge but it has been deployed in we have in African countries
26:24
in some Latin American cities. It can be used also in case of disasters then quickly a mesh network can be deployed. Also I think in camps for refugees
26:44
so it's not that simple. It's not a miracle weapon to solve every problems but yes it has been developed everywhere. But it sounds really too good to be truth and I wonder
27:01
if in the policy area is any I was hearing that there might be some regulations that threaten these networks and how was it was any discussion while discussing net neutrality around around these alternatives? I'm curious to hear. Not in the big European debate we had about net
27:25
neutrality law in on the European level but right now after we have currently a proposal called wi-fi4eu which gets funding to local wi-fis and community projects but it's
27:40
again leaning more towards big telecom companies that then also do some small local wi-fi projects not really this type of bottom-up decentralized infrastructure which I would much more prefer to be given those I think it's only three million euros in the budget of that law but those
28:03
those local initiatives really would benefit from from some sort of funding because those are really run by the people. This is a sustainable form of infrastructure investment and just plainly out of the heck I think I mean this is promoting decentralization in the best form and
28:22
it's also an infrastructure which is resilient to censorship and it cannot be so easily shut down and we see fiercely an increasing number of internet shutdowns around the world in the past year so this is a real problem and just one final note because I also traveled a lot around
28:43
in the last years on this net neutrality thing and in Bulgaria actually they have the highest number of internet service providers in all of Europe because they started off in that way so the internet came to Bulgaria because some local nerds wanted to have internet and then they hooked up their family hooked up their neighbors and they became isbs and you can
29:04
still see that if you go around in in the cities there because the wires are really completely chaotic so it is maybe hundreds of wires between the the houses and that that is what decentralized infrastructure looks like and to the contrary in Germany you
29:23
could not even have a wire above the street everything has to be under the street and then you have all the ridiculous copyright laws in Germany which lead to the fact that the German community has to tunnel all their traffic to Sweden because only then they are not liable for
29:42
what their users are doing and so I think there are many obstacles and regulatory terms that prevent such good decentralized projects if I maybe just because you ask if if that's also viable in countries that are not Europe Mozilla recently ran an equal rating innovation challenge and the concept behind equal rating was exactly how can we provide open access to the open and
30:04
free internet the entire internet in ways that are not zero rated but still affordable to overcome some of those barriers and we did have some fantastic projects which submitted their ideas that also were community-based networks so it's happening in India it's happening in
30:22
in Brazil it's we had like also African projects which exactly adopted a model like that how can we build community networks to not only decentralize but also to bring neighborhoods online rural areas which might be neglected from governments so there are initiatives out there it's totally working in other regions I think it's just a matter of how do we get these then connected with their
30:43
contents with what they need to the entire internet to amplify their efforts to scale them because I think the the main risk is making that sustainable in a way that it's not just a tiny little rural area or one city but how do we make sure that they still benefit from sustainable
31:00
scalable access um to the entire internet and I think that's something we haven't been able to address yet but there's a lot of potential um I think like your challenges the non-geek gender inclusion um yeah the non-geek exactly how do we get the non-geek people to understand this and help contribute to that that's one of my main questions it seems it seems that actually the non-geek and gender inclusion is both is a shared problem of is a transversal
31:25
problem everywhere we look so maybe we have a problem in society uh that is uh that is where we should address it but something interesting that you mentioned and I would like you to go deeper on it is you mentioned that actually uh these community networks can also help us
31:43
fight the surveillance problem and I want to hear more about that well if you manage the infrastructure then technically you can avoid a surveillance and you can control your internet you can control your own internet so then you will not own
32:07
the backbones at some level there are might uh there might always be surveillance but if uh if you are independent and uh you own the devices and there are open hardwares and uh there's no
32:25
monitoring in in the network uh then it's uh it's a progress of decentralization uh one more thing imagine that you you you're invited for the minister of Guatemala just as an example
32:42
and you say um you will be the drafter of a poli a policy on digital inclusion which ingredients and I will we can bounce uh the the responses do it collaboratively which ingredients will that policy have which elements basic elements will it have
33:04
that's a good question I'm not sure if I have a good answer um I mean it would basically empowering the people that really live in those communities to um to to get them
33:21
the necessary ingredients is to build systems like that to come up with locally run networks I think internet infrastructure is far too vital for democracy to be um seen just as the private property of some companies and particularly if there is government money involved or a
33:41
government project then um we should really give to people ownership about the internet and the network that they build and um mostly that means getting obstacles out of the way maybe be telecom regulation um copyright um or maybe also language issues and um
34:00
educational issues you know you have to also provide offers for people that connect with their real world uh right now in order to get them online I think but Catherine is the expert on that um and and um yeah I mean in Guatemala um I I can see uh contour uh example would be in
34:24
Brazil you know there um was a project where Zuckerberg was invited to do wi-fi in favelas but the wi-fi would only connect to Facebook and free basics and so I think there are many examples how it should not be done and I think asking the people on the ground actually what
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type of network they want to have uh would would be a better solution than letting Silicon Valley companies come in Kathleen I'm still thinking about my answer um it's a very tricky question I know that since you mentioned Guatemala I know that you've been working on a local project there to develop a digital bill of rights for Guatemala and I know you've like included a lot
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of different communities and different it is just just to clarify it's just any hypothetical country of course but like I know that there are efforts like that in other countries as well it's just I kind of wonder if it's the right hypothesis to to expect a minister to do a digital inclusion concept because yes that's ideal but there are also a lot of societal problems
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in pretty much every single country that I can picture in my head right now and there's always a risk of amplifying this unless you have you can work with best practice examples of what already worked so it should be always a start with mapping what's happened in other countries what are the lessons that we've learned but never started from scratch and just focusing on
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your own country because you're bound to be siloed in the problems and amplify the problems that you already have in your own society so I just I kind of fear that this is an obstacle to inclusion because our societies are not as inclusive as at least I want to see them I'm an idealist um we're not where we need to be at this stage so that's where I start with like
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a wonder um an ingredient that should definitely be there is basic skills as in it's not just teaching kids how to code uh you need to be able to search to read to navigate to evaluate content um to write on the internet to participate right it's remixing content to coding you have to have all of those skills um and you have to have availability for local content so providing that
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for inclusion is important um so I think it needs to go hand in hand we have to have the policy in place where monopolization and centralization is regulated we need to have the networks that reach all the areas which are really hard with fiber optic cables so that we have other solutions for that but we also need the skills and the awareness so it needs to be
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that but we need the research and the data comparability to um go somewhere where it's actually inclusive Melanie I don't have anything to add I think that was a good synthesis well I think that what will be very interesting now is uh to hear from all of you and to hear well what which ingredient you uh inclusive uh internet internet for all
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we'll have and if you have comments questions uh if you want to share a project if you want to share good policies now is the moment to interact with our panelists thank you maximilian
37:28
schubert isber association of internet service providers and I would like to repeat what thomas has just said that competition is essential for being able to express itself really
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on the internet also to benefit in an optimal way from the internet and I think we are now at very interesting point where in europe there's a lot of discussion of how to finance the rollout of fiber all across europe and I would say there are two different approaches onto how this challenge can be met and one is to say well we need a few big players who can earn revenues
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and can invest these revenues into fiber and thereby increase with total at their overall speed or we can try to aim towards competition and say we've got a lot of small internet service providers or medium internet service providers and they will foster the rollout they will
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thereby lead to higher speeds and lower prices and I think it's a very interesting discussion we are also leading now in europe thank you other questions grab the
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chance to share your ideas or to comment to think further well just to wrap up then if there's no more questions I would like to share that I think that all the organization you want to say something else I just wanted to say yeah max is
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completely right that competition at least if we speak about any form of critical infrastructure is a vital condition because as I said it's internet is a far too important infrastructure to have it just centralized in the hands of one or two companies like it is
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in the US because that just amplifies other problems that we have and in europe it is really bad to see right now that the commission has a huge track record of success and brought internet prices down brought a lot of network investment because they forced competition into the market and and now it's not even not learning from your mistakes
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they are not learning from their success because now they are going the other direction now they are saying oh two three internet service providers in all of europe that's okay and and they are basically trying to copy all of the mistakes that the US has made and and I think that's
40:04
telecom regulation is a very weird issue and and when you work from it from a civil society perspective you often feel like okay is there no sane voice in there um but it's the problem is there's just so much money you know those telecom companies have revenues in the billions
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and therefore um when we always speak about infrastructure we have to keep in mind that there are very strong business interests on the other side as well well again uh wrapping up i will say that what we intended to explain in this panel is that when we discuss digital inequalities it is not just the connectivity and as you share
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it has telecommunication companies play a big big big role but as kathleen shared it is also human problem and societies are reflected in the way that uh citizens are connected and next time that uh you in your countries and when you hear about the policy they say like there are
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no alternatives and there's no ways to connect unless we have facebook unless we have big companies solving the problems i think it will be very interesting to look at the viable alternatives that community networks can uh can build and also viable alternatives that
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on the content level so at web foundation we are we knew a strategy on digital equality and ways to achieve it so just to wrap up the panel follow the work that we are doing and let's hope that we find more answers to these pressing issues thanks for inviting us thank you
41:44
yeah thank you so much melanie renata kathleen and thomas it was very insightful