The Good, the Bad and the Zero
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00:00
Finite-Elemente-MethodeHypermediaArithmetisches MittelPhysikalische TheorieStochastische AbhängigkeitBitrateAggregatzustandBeobachtungsstudieGewicht <Ausgleichsrechnung>EntscheidungstheorieDatenverwaltungSichtenkonzeptLesen <Datenverarbeitung>GraphfärbungXMLComputeranimationVorlesung/Konferenz
01:16
ProgrammHypermediaEntscheidungstheorieCASE <Informatik>ARM <Computerarchitektur>InternetworkingArithmetisches MittelMAPRegulator <Mathematik>BeobachtungsstudieAggregatzustandKartesische KoordinatenDienst <Informatik>Spannweite <Stochastik>PunktProzess <Informatik>HyperbelverfahrenBitrateGewicht <Ausgleichsrechnung>Twitter <Softwareplattform>FaserbündelForcingLateinisches QuadratFormation <Mathematik>Physikalische TheorieLesen <Datenverarbeitung>FacebookSprachsyntheseEndliche ModelltheorieSchreiben <Datenverarbeitung>ProgrammierungFreewareRechter WinkelBesprechung/Interview
03:55
BitrateDienst <Informatik>Gesetz <Physik>Gewicht <Ausgleichsrechnung>Einfach zusammenhängender RaumPunktArithmetisches MittelSchnittmengeZahlenbereichMultiplikationsoperatorTwitter <Softwareplattform>Regulator <Mathematik>CASE <Informatik>Befehl <Informatik>FacebookToken-RingHasard <Digitaltechnik>Besprechung/Interview
05:21
ZeitzoneMobiles InternetLesen <Datenverarbeitung>MultiplikationsoperatorComputerunterstützte ÜbersetzungHasard <Digitaltechnik>InternetworkingBitrateGewicht <Ausgleichsrechnung>FrequenzKontextbezogenes SystemÄhnlichkeitsgeometrieURLMinkowski-MetrikSystemplattformCASE <Informatik>ComputerspielTermWeb SiteDichte <Physik>FaserbündelGüte der AnpassungGeradeTelekommunikationWort <Informatik>Quick-SortSoftwaretestFramework <Informatik>MusterspracheNatürliche ZahlUltraviolett-PhotoelektronenspektroskopieVererbungshierarchieBitFacebookAggregatzustandBandmatrixHackerSoftwareBesprechung/Interview
09:12
Produkt <Mathematik>Negative ZahlUltraviolett-PhotoelektronenspektroskopieGüte der AnpassungEinsMusterspracheSystem FInformationSystemplattformDienst <Informatik>Familie <Mathematik>TelekommunikationInternetworkingMAPService providerHypermediaFacebookWeb SiteResultanteKonfiguration <Informatik>SoundverarbeitungInstantiierungBildschirmmaskeTypentheorieLeistung <Physik>Message-PassingUmsetzung <Informatik>SoftwareEinfach zusammenhängender RaumBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
12:35
ProgrammEinfache GenauigkeitAusnahmebehandlungDifferenteDienst <Informatik>BitrateInstantiierungSchnittmengeMAPFaserbündelSoftwareentwicklerInformationMotion CapturingRechter WinkelOrtsoperatorFreewarePerspektivePunktProjektive EbeneGeschlecht <Mathematik>NeuroinformatikDigitale SpaltungInternetworkingMultiplikationsoperatorSchreiben <Datenverarbeitung>AggregatzustandMusterspracheService providerSichtenkonzeptApp <Programm>TermCASE <Informatik>In-System-ProgrammierungKugelkappeBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
15:21
Dienst <Informatik>TermHyperbelverfahrenCASE <Informatik>Serielle SchnittstelleBitSchnittmengeForcingVektorpotenzialKontextbezogenes SystemEinsEreignishorizontTaskInternetworkingInverser LimesInstantiierungPunktspektrumInvarianteRechter WinkelAggregatzustandKugelkappeElektronischer ProgrammführerService providerTelekommunikationBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
17:30
ZeitzoneMathematische LogikSchnitt <Mathematik>MomentenproblemLesen <Datenverarbeitung>Güte der AnpassungGeradeBildschirmmaskeInternetworkingWeb SiteCodecBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
18:25
CASE <Informatik>VarianzBitrateProdukt <Mathematik>Dienst <Informatik>WasserdampftafelFacebookInternetworkingGruppenoperationGamecontrollerAbgeschlossene MengePerspektiveWechselsprungSoftwareentwicklerWeb SiteTeilbarkeitGemeinsamer SpeicherBitProzess <Informatik>Güte der AnpassungKonfiguration <Informatik>VersionsverwaltungBildgebendes VerfahrenSprachsyntheseVideokonferenzVerschlingungRechter WinkelDifferenteKontextbezogenes SystemTermWeb-SeiteWinkelToken-RingPhasenumwandlungVisualisierungDimensionsanalyseArithmetischer AusdruckKreisflächeSchlussregelCodeDigitaltechnikStellenringVorlesung/KonferenzBesprechung/Interview
21:57
InternetworkingInhalt <Mathematik>VideokonferenzSystemplattformYouTubeDichotomieMereologieWeb SiteCodeInstantiierungBitrateParametersystemMotion CapturingKonstanteDienst <Informatik>KugelkappeBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
22:59
Produkt <Mathematik>Wort <Informatik>Physikalische TheorieGeradePunktRechenwerkDienst <Informatik>App <Programm>AuswahlaxiomRechter WinkelBildgebendes VerfahrenEreignishorizontComputerspielBandmatrixPhysikalisches SystemVideokonferenzTermFamilie <Mathematik>MultiplikationsoperatorInternetworkingSchreib-Lese-KopfBesprechung/Interview
24:50
StellenringCASE <Informatik>BitAutomatische DifferentiationDialektBenchmarkDifferenzkernFacebookInternetworkingGüte der AnpassungEinflussgrößeBitrateApp <Programm>Dienst <Informatik>Besprechung/Interview
26:23
Zuckerberg, MarkVollständiger VerbandCASE <Informatik>Rechter WinkelDienst <Informatik>Regulator <Mathematik>InternetworkingEntscheidungstheorieTelekommunikationFacebookSelbstrepräsentationResultantePunktMAPGrenzschichtablösungQuick-SortBesprechung/Interview
28:05
ProgrammFreewareCASE <Informatik>Kontextbezogenes SystemApp <Programm>SoftwareProdukt <Mathematik>InstantiierungRechenwerkAnalysisBitrateKreisflächeRegulator <Mathematik>BitPerspektiveMereologieEntscheidungstheorieSystemverwaltungOrtsoperatorComputerunterstützte ÜbersetzungKugelkappeVererbungshierarchieVorlesung/Konferenz
29:58
Physikalische TheorieProdukt <Mathematik>BitrateNichtlinearer OperatorFaserbündelInternetworkingBitCASE <Informatik>Suite <Programmpaket>Twitter <Softwareplattform>PunktBildverstehenCoxeter-GruppeDifferenzkernSystemaufrufMultiplikationsoperatorBesprechung/Interview
31:04
ParametersystemEndliche ModelltheoriePhysikalisches SystemCASE <Informatik>EreignishorizontDifferenzkernWhiteboardMultiplikationsoperatorARM <Computerarchitektur>MUDNormalvektorFaserbündelBitrateInternettelefonieRegulator <Mathematik>FacebookInstantiierungBesprechung/Interview
31:51
InternetworkingTeilbarkeitAusnahmebehandlungMessage-PassingAuswahlaxiomÄußere Algebra eines ModulsMetropolitan area networkKonfiguration <Informatik>SystemplattformWasserdampftafelGefangenendilemmaMAPVorlesung/KonferenzBesprechung/Interview
33:23
SummierbarkeitDatenmissbrauchSuchmaschineSpieltheorieParametersystemApp <Programm>MAPIndexberechnungRoboterFaserbündelWort <Informatik>Besprechung/Interview
34:21
App <Programm>DatenmissbrauchFreewareKontextbezogenes SystemGamecontrollerRegulator <Mathematik>MAPRechter WinkelProzess <Informatik>PerspektiveAuswahlaxiomFormale SpracheÄußere Algebra eines ModulsMathematische LogikVorlesung/Konferenz
35:36
InformationInternetworkingDatenmissbrauchBitMessage-PassingBaumechanikBildschirmmaskeMultiplikationsoperatorStandardabweichungPunktFacebookSummierbarkeitEinfacher RingTVD-VerfahrenWort <Informatik>FaserbündelSchlüsselverwaltungFreewareDienst <Informatik>Umsetzung <Informatik>InstantiierungSoftwareentwicklerSichtenkonzeptStatistikGrundraumArithmetisches MittelCASE <Informatik>Besprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
38:23
App <Programm>Web SiteParametersystemPunktExpertensystemUmsetzung <Informatik>SoftwareentwicklerDialektArithmetisches MittelTabelleInstantiierungBesprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
39:42
Dienst <Informatik>BaumechanikExpertensystemGruppenoperationParametersystemBitrateInternetworkingBetrag <Mathematik>App <Programm>Ordnung <Mathematik>TermInformationBAYESWiderspruchsfreiheitAbstimmung <Frequenz>Besprechung/Interview
41:23
ProgrammiergerätOrdnung <Mathematik>Dienst <Informatik>MereologieTensorGrundsätze ordnungsmäßiger DatenverarbeitungCodecInternetworkingProdukt <Mathematik>ZahlenbereichHilfesystemArithmetisches MittelSoundverarbeitungSchnittmengeVorlesung/KonferenzBesprechung/Interview
42:57
Umsetzung <Informatik>Inhalt <Mathematik>PunktBildschirmmaskeBildgebendes VerfahrenQuellcodeDifferenteMAPBesprechung/Interview
43:45
InstantiierungRechter WinkelVerknüpfungsgliedSoftwareentwicklerKontextbezogenes SystemUmsetzung <Informatik>Quick-SortMaschinenschreibenArithmetisches MittelPunktNatürliche ZahlOffice-PaketMultiplikationsoperatorRPCVollständiger VerbandElektronisches ForumVorlesung/KonferenzBesprechung/Interview
45:03
CASE <Informatik>InternetworkingParametersystemWort <Informatik>GeradeSystemplattformDimensionsanalyseOffene MengeProzess <Informatik>Vorlesung/Konferenz
45:51
Regulator <Mathematik>InternetworkingAbstimmung <Frequenz>Formale SpracheProgrammierungStellenringParametersystemKontextbezogenes SystemGewicht <Ausgleichsrechnung>QuellcodeDifferenteMAPIntelligentes NetzMultiplikationsoperatorComputerspielRechenwerkBesprechung/Interview
47:07
SoftwareentwicklerDifferenteProdukt <Mathematik>SummierbarkeitElektronisches ForumRegulator <Mathematik>StichprobenumfangBitrateRechter WinkelFreewareSoftwareOpen SourcePerspektiveBesprechung/Interview
48:00
Rechter WinkelUmsetzung <Informatik>SoftwareentwicklerPerspektiveSelbst organisierendes SystemInternetworkingMultiplikationsoperatorPeer-to-Peer-NetzKontextbezogenes SystemTabelleBesprechung/Interview
49:12
Umsetzung <Informatik>StellenringSoftwareentwicklerVersionsverwaltungFacebookResultanteÄußere Algebra eines ModulsSchnittmengePhasenumwandlungFlächeninhaltDienst <Informatik>MultiplikationsoperatorFormation <Mathematik>MustersprachePhysikalischer EffektFreewareVorlesung/Konferenz
50:56
DifferenzkernNichtlineares ZuordnungsproblemInternetworkingLateinisches QuadratMinkowski-MetrikPunktGruppenoperationMereologieHalbleiterspeicherArithmetisches MittelVideokonferenzSoftwareentwicklerAutomatische HandlungsplanungStellenringLeistung <Physik>Besprechung/Interview
52:19
AuswahlaxiomDatenmissbrauchBitrateRegulator <Mathematik>App <Programm>DifferenzkernÄußere Algebra eines ModulsPhysikalische TheorieInformationsspeicherungGebäude <Mathematik>SoftwareBesprechung/Interview
53:17
ZentralisatorInternetworkingÄußere Algebra eines ModulsLeistung <Physik>BenutzerbeteiligungFacebookSprachsyntheseMultiplikationsoperatorBitDienst <Informatik>Web-DesignerWeb-SeiteProzess <Informatik>Produkt <Mathematik>PhasenumwandlungArithmetisches MittelWeb SiteMinkowski-MetrikWeb logCASE <Informatik>Besprechung/InterviewVorlesung/Konferenz
55:06
Mooresches GesetzSoftwareEinsFacebookOrtsoperatorFunktion <Mathematik>GruppenoperationBesprechung/Interview
56:07
Klasse <Mathematik>DatenmissbrauchTermRegulator <Mathematik>Rechter WinkelSystemplattformGesetz <Physik>CodeSoundverarbeitungSoftwareVorlesung/Konferenz
57:05
Minkowski-MetrikInternetworkingART-NetzSchlussregelRechenschieberUnendlichkeitMAPFacebookInstantiierungGenerator <Informatik>SoundverarbeitungSoftwareDatenfeldBesprechung/Interview
57:53
InternetworkingEntscheidungstheorieUmsetzung <Informatik>SchlussregelFreewareMaßerweiterungFacebookOffene MengeRechter WinkelSoundverarbeitungSoftwareDienst <Informatik>ZahlenbereichPhysikalisches SystemDruckverlaufBitrateMathematik
59:33
JSONXML
Transkript: Englisch(automatisch erzeugt)
00:19
Hi, everybody. My name is Lea Gimple, I'm a policy advisor, and I'm here with four
00:24
wonderful people on the panel. We have Juan Carlos Lara, he's a research and policy manager at the Registica Chales from Chile. We have Kutsayo Mubeiwa, she's a co-founder and manager of iZone Hub in Zimbabwe. We have a wonderful Nanjira Zambuli, she's
00:41
an independent policy advisor and researcher, and she used to work for iHub research in Kenya. And we have Kathleen Berger, she's an independent policy advisor as well, and she currently works for Global Partners Digital. So, before we dive deep into our topic, I would like to start with a short overview of the state of
01:01
theory rating and net neutrality around the world, and ask all four of you what's the state of theory rating in your home country today. Whoever wants to start. Well, I will take the final decision to start then. So, studies have
01:22
shown that zero rating is one of the more popular approaches to actually accessing data in Kenya. So, the Alliance for Affordable Internet did a study of eight countries in the developing world, and of all eight, so four in Africa and two in Latin America and two in Southeast Asia. Of
01:43
those, Kenya had the highest zero rating models. Now, the thing about it that was particularly interesting is that it's actually quite normalized as a means of getting access. So, you know, the popular social networks are... Oh, maybe I should even backtrack. Does anyone not know what zero rating is in the room? Okay, great. Ah, right. I see, I got you. So, the idea being
02:06
somebody other than the customer is going to pay for your access, is going this case you find it's mostly social networks that are zero rated. So, you have programs or bundles or that kind of arrangement that allows you to access
02:22
maybe Facebook, Twitter, Gmail, Instagram, WhatsApp. Those are usually bundled together. So, that kind of access is at almost no cost or even if you buy bundles and they expire, you can still access those services for free. So, that's the state. It's one of the more popular access points for us, at least in Kenya. So, speaking for the EU, not exactly
02:45
a country but still, the zero rating will be regulated on a EU level and the status quo is that it is not currently clear what the status is. So, we have a regulation on net neutrality which just entered into force this Saturday. And in that, some say it could be interpreted that zero rating is
03:05
banned and some say that maybe, in case by case, it could be legal. So, the process that we're currently facing is that the body of European Regulators for Electronic Communication, which we call BEREC, which is 28 regulators, the national regulators meet and decide on the guidelines on how to implement that
03:23
regulation. The regulation is directly applicable in all 28 member states of the European Union and zero rating is one of the main things that we need to figure out how to deal with. There is some precedent in European member state countries like the Netherlands and Slovenia where zero rating is already
03:41
banned. So, we're hoping that these countries will also push for a ban on it for a range of reasons. We're going into the reasons for that later. The case of Chile, the case is very special because it's the first country in the world that enacted a net neutrality law. So, you would expect
04:00
that zero rating services would be banned outright. And the truth is, they are prohibited by law. But at the same time, while we saw that regulators provided a statement saying that the telcos were not allowed to publicize their zero rated services, that they still exist and that they are
04:21
normalized and that actually people do not exchange their phone numbers anymore. They exchange their WhatsApp numbers. But still, it's something very special because even though you saw the statement and you saw the regulators very explicitly banning zero rated services advertisement, still
04:40
those services exist. And actually, one of the most recent telcos to come into the market expanded the offer of zero rated services to Instagram and Snapchat, aside from Twitter, Facebook and WhatsApp. But at the same time, while we do not see that in Chile this is being enforced, the net neutrality law, even though it could be enforced, at the same time,
05:03
the regulator at one point said Wikipedia zero would be allowed. So, zero rated services are banned, but they still exist. And Wikipedia zero supports it, but it's not operating in Chile. So, it's a very interesting case of the law meaning practically nothing.
05:20
And I come from Zimbabwe and I'll generally hazard to say that zero rating is not a thing in my country. Net neutrality is even worse. It's not a thing at all. You try and bring it up, you'll be attacked left, right and center. And this is why the typical Zimbabwean accesses, you know, their internet via mobile device, so mostly smartphones. And you'll find that for
05:44
most people, the first way they're introduced to the internet or what they call the internet is WhatsApp. This is because when WhatsApp came through, it was very popular, using very, very little bandwidth, even if it was paid for. And one of the biggest telecommunications companies, which is
06:02
called EcoNet, got wind of that and they then began to create what are called bundles. So, most of the internet access in my country is mobile and it's through, you know, what are called bundles where they allow you to get, you know, bandwidth that allows you to access just WhatsApp only or bandwidth that allows you just to access Facebook only and to a small
06:20
extent, bandwidth that allows you to access a pair of mini only for a very small fee for an entire, you know, period. And those are extremely popular because I always like to joke and say because Zimbabweans are also very used to bundling when it comes to simple things like food, you know, the way that we stage geographical location, the places which are called locations where you have high density, you
06:43
know, high density sort of establishments for staying. And people generally tend to buy only as much food as they may need for that day. So, they'll buy, you know, a bundle of vegetables and they'll buy a little portion of cooking oil or they'll buy a little portion of milli-mil, just enough for that day. And that is a way of life. So, when it extends to internet access and you can
07:03
get a bundle for a very small amount, no one has problems with that. If anything, the only people who may have issues with net neutrality and zero rating are start-ups, and which we'll probably speak about a little bit later on. And when they do try and raise that up with, you know, policy makers, the third pattern is to say, look, this is the Western thing. What is your
07:22
issue? So, essentially, in Zim, that is where we are. There is literally no policy, no legislation against it. And in terms of the zero rating proper of websites, I think just two come to mind. Firstly, there are, you know, those MOOCs, the, you know, the places where you can actually learn online. So, Coursera is zero rated by the biggest network provider, which
07:43
is Econet. And I think that may sound more like a good move, because it's for education. But the other interesting bit is the other site that is popularly known or people are aware of that is zero rated is a site which is called ony.co.zw. Now, I'll conclude with a very short story
08:00
about how Ony came about. Econet, which has about 60% of, you know, the mobile internet in Zimbabwe provides 60%. They have the largest market, started up an online or an e-commerce platform, which was called Tengai. Tengai is a shona word that means buy. It was tengai.co.zw. And when they introduced it into Zimbabwe, it was zero rated,
08:22
and it was widely touted as a free place to access. It didn't last a week. Within a week, hackers had come in and they pulled down that site. And that was in July of 2015. And the third pattern was that, you know, the guys that were in that similar space of e-commerce, the third pattern is that someone actually did that because they didn't want to
08:42
fight, you know, they don't want to compete with Econet. The feeling was, this is unfair. They already have, you know, mobile users, and they themselves want to run a startup and they introduced it as zero rated. What about all of these guys who've been working all along? And essentially, they actually only then came back online, that site resurrected actually in November 2015, and
09:03
now it's called online, but it's too zero rated. Okay, great. So it seems like the legal framework is like different in most of the countries, but still zero rated products are around, they are used. What do you think, what kind of implications are the most notable regarding zero rated products, like both positive
09:22
and negative ones? For example, for access to information, but also for startups and innovation? Wow, my voice. Okay. Well, at the end of the day, whether it's a good or bad thing, that's what happens
09:41
in many panels. We don't have enough research yet about the implications, good or bad, and so a lot of what we're talking about is speculative and really about trying to curb, especially the bad before it happens, really trying to mitigate before the fact. But, for instance, with having your US-based
10:04
Western social media platforms being zero rated, it must convey a message to startups, a very strong one. I haven't heard, except for the Zim example of too many local options being zero rated. Now with three basics entering the market, that's the Facebook,
10:22
formerly internet.org platform, they are trying, though as the gatekeeper, so to speak, to bring in more local partners into their site. So it really comes down to how we want to view it. The good for actors is, yes, there's some internet. And I
10:43
understand it's exactly what Kudzai is saying for people on the ground. They're just like, yo, I get to hang out, I get to talk to my family, I get to do this, that or the other. So what does it matter? You know, I'm connected. So for them, that could be a good and it's something we have to factor in, even in this conversation, for the telcos or the people, ISPs,
11:02
internet service providers, who are providing this zero rated services, most often than not, and especially in Africa, it's been found, it's always the second entrant to market, who is trying to find a network effect. So they think they will have more people, you know, join their platforms by using this as a way to get more people just by a result
11:20
of being in the node. So that could be a good for them. The bad is, we are now sitting at a situation where, say, there's an election situation, and access to some of the more popular platforms for communication or access to information are zero rated or on this one platform, when a telco is
11:42
told to take that down. So if that telco is blocked, how, what are the other forms for people to communicate, right? So the question then becomes, if accessing this five, say, WhatsApp, Facebook and other types is free or zero rated, so it's at no cost to the user, but if those are
12:01
blocked for any reason, how else will they connect to the world? How else will they go? What does that cost? Will they even want to go online if those are not available? That's when we started venturing into the bad and the potentially ugly. And so what we're seeing is that we're talking about somebody somewhere having so much power about what constitutes what we can
12:21
access at no cost, and there's a conversation there we have to have, still acknowledging that for some people, they're saying, wait, we have some access? All good. I'm connecting to my family, my friends, taking my selfies and posting them. What's the wahala, as they would say? I feel like there's a lot of layers to this question, and zero rating often gets conflated
12:40
with a lot of issues. So there's, you said that Wikipedia Zero, for instance, there was that exception in the Chilean law. The difference is it's a one single service app, so it's that one app that gets zero rated, whereas the bundle that happens with Free Basics, for instance, in Africa and in Asia, and I think they're like in 25 countries now, that's a bundle
13:00
access, and they pretend to be the internet because there's more than this one app, and it's also not an app that's on top of your data that you already have, but it's your first entry, which creates a completely different set of problems, and I think that is also something that we need to be aware of, and that might not be the discussion that we usually have within the European Union, because usually zero rating would not be your first
13:22
entry point to the internet, but it's something that comes on top of the data you already have, so what we're usually discussing is that our data caps get lower and lower and lower because they want us to use particular services, so it's a competition aspect, but at the same time, those companies, especially the huge US-based ones, they're also not acting alone, but they're using competitive patterns in the
13:44
countries where they partner with because they always need an ISP to partner with, they cannot just offer their services without that, and then the other thing that when we're talking from the European level is there's a lot of development aid money going into questions like right to access, and then if there's
14:01
this certain appeal of, like I remember in a research project that we've done last year, we talked to a South African trust fund, which is called Funza Literacy Trust, and their aim is to basically get people to read and to provide books, and that's really a public interest, educational, non-profit service, and all they want to do is make sure that
14:21
people are in a position to even read, because what you use is the internet, if you're not even able to read, like you need that information, so it's really from a development aid perspective, literacy, very important, that's the only way to innovate and to actually be creative and culturally diverse, so there is a huge appeal to that, and they are zero rated on free basics in South Africa,
14:43
they are also partnering with local projects, which provide data, wifi data for free, and their data uses is never actually calculated against that data cap, and I get it from their point of view, because it's not a digital divide, it's an information divide, but at the same time, if you use it with them,
15:00
where do you draw the line? And from a human rights perspective, that might sound like very idealistic, but ultimately long term goals, from a human rights perspective, I would say that's still tricky, even though I totally understand that it's very important, but that case by case judgment, which a lot of people are advocating for, it's just gonna be like a slippery slope, and I see a lot of dangers to that.
15:22
And I find it very interesting that you speak about the case by case, because even if we speak about Wikipedia zero, we can still discuss which are the criteria under which some services might be allowed to be zero rated or not. We can talk about that a bit later. But in terms of the consequences,
15:40
and whether they're good or bad, it's true that some people, or many people, will value very highly to be able to use certain services without having to pay extra for them, while the data caps are getting lower and lower, and while they are pretty much using the spectrum also to administer scarcity, and to take advantage of this scarcity, of this forced scarcity
16:02
to provide certain services, and guide people to use some and not others. In the Latin American context, very specifically, and also echoing some of the concerns about the African countries, some of the biggest issues that we have is related to access to the internet, and to the use of access to the internet,
16:21
especially considering some limitations in our infrastructure, in our telecommunications infrastructure, and how it has not been taken as a task by the states, and it's mostly given as a task for private actors. And in that sense, we're pretty much getting locked in by certain services,
16:42
because those are the ones that will provide it. And other than that, we barely have any access. There's very little instances of public access, even though they are still getting there in certain big cities, and not in the faraway places. So to have these services, and to have the possibility
17:00
to access the internet for some people might be okay. But the thing is that we speak about, especially in the digital rights realm, about the potential of the internet, and we are not seeing that being developed when people are able sometimes to read what their friends say, but not really able to talk back to a broader audience.
17:21
So even though we still are lacking in terms of evidence on that, we can still identify some of the risks that we identify as bad for that. I think I'll echo some of the sentiments my colleagues have already highlighted, and say for me, the way I perceive it is that I think there's more harm than good,
17:40
in my view, from zero rating. There's a popular song, I've just forgotten who sang it, that says the first cut is the deepest. I'm gonna give you a moment to think about that. So I really feel if you're gonna take the pains to actually get people to access a few sites, then why not get the entire web? Because for me, the whole essence of the internet
18:02
is literally fought against the moment you begin to doll it out and dish it out in small portions, so for me, the feeling is, well, I understand that there are places where it may do really good stuff, like whether it's health, or probably education, consent, but my feeling is, if you're gonna reach out to them at all, then you may as well give them the full monty, so those are my initial thoughts.
18:23
All right, you already mentioned Wikipedia Zero. I'm sure you read about the case in Angola where the zero rating offer was misused by certain people. How do you see this example, and what does it mean for other zero rated products, and how are we going to deal with them?
18:42
I will very strongly, with my lack of voice, jump on that one, because A, it's not abuse. It's people co-opting it for what they wanted it to be, and I, hats off to the Angolans for that. So the context. Wikipedia gives Wikipedia Zero through one of the leading telcos in Angola, and there's also Facebook Zero available.
19:03
Now, those were mostly, and what happens with zero rated sites is mostly text heavy, but what did the Angolans want from the internet? They wanted visuals, they wanted images, they wanted videos, so what do they do? They find ways to put links to the images and the videos that they want to watch in Wikipedia articles, and then share
19:21
on closed Facebook groups. I mean, I read that as hats off, slow clapping. Like 10 freaking years. Now, that puts Wikipedia in a quagmire, right? So do they keep taking the sites down? Do they keep taking those pages down? But then what happens to the do good intention?
19:42
You are giving the poor people some internet, right? So what do you do? And the groups are very closely, like they're really tightly regulated, so it's very bounded in terms of the community aspect. Now, what that tells us is at the end of the day, yes, you can supply because we are coming
20:02
from wherever we are coming, or they are coming from wherever they are coming to save the world from itself, and giving them a version of the internet because some is better than none, but the market is pushing back and saying, we'll take your sum, we're gonna make it our own, and we're gonna show you that at the end of the day, this is not a viable option. And for me, that is a powerful example of the fact that this notion of giving people
20:24
some little bit is actually condescending, and it speaks to the development tropes that have not been addressed in other circuits. We've seen that with water, we've seen that with education and health. Some is better than none, you know? Let's dish it out in little bits and pieces. But the internet is that last final thing,
20:41
and I love that there's that right to push back, and again, I just say slow clap to the Angolans, man, good job. I just wanna say awesome. I want to see more innovators doing that and just hacking the tools. I think that's absolutely fantastic. There was another example, I'm just gonna steal it from Juan Carlos because I'm not sure you're gonna mention that, Peru one, but there was also a coder in Peru
21:01
who basically wrote a tool that used Facebook Zero and made it possible to then jump to other news sites because they were incorporated as well in Facebook Zero. Awesome, please keep doing that. I can just support that because that's the only way to actually also bring it home that this is about human rights in freedom of expression, freedom of speech.
21:22
You can't do that if you're just being dished out little pieces, and like Nanjira usually says, it's like with the water example. Well, we give you water, but whether it's potable or not, different question. We'll discuss that once everyone has already drank in the polluted one. And that's just not where we wanna go.
21:42
As much as that might be appealing from a public service perspective or from an education perspective, it sets precedence, which we might not be able to fight back because also governments are losing control over the corporate interest that drives that innovation factor. Going forward with that Paraguayan example
22:01
of hacking the platform. I'm sorry. The idea that we have this little internet or no internet drives us to a dichotomy which is false, that it's either none or very little, and the truth is that we should expect more than that,
22:21
especially nowadays that the internet is so much used for video content. For instance, if you want to see an awesome zero-rated panel on YouTube that was on Republika this year, that you could expect to do that, but then if you have very low data caps or you do not have the zero-rated services that allow you to see that video, you'll be limited in the kind of content
22:42
that you will be able to find out, and the kind of content you'll be having access to, or the kind of content that you'll be able to produce. But that argument about having little or having none is a political argument that we definitely need to fight back. Yeah.
23:02
All right. I agree with all of them. Great. So apart from hacking zero-rated products, do you know of any app or service that you would say is that it's useful, that it's zero-rated? Or do you think that generally
23:21
there shouldn't be any zero-rated product? And how do we go on? How can we draw a line between those things? For me, okay. I was just trying to break the mold that we start from that side. For once, I lead. Okay, I'm hacking it. If I was put in a corner, I would say WhatsApp, because I found that obviously for many people
23:41
it's extremely user-friendly. My mom is 59, she's 10, 60. Next year, all things being equal. And she has no cares for the internet for the rest of it. But she does want pictures of her grandchild. And she does not pay that much for the internet. She will not bother herself with trying to pay for bandwidth. But as long as she's able to actually access WhatsApp,
24:01
and I find that it's a very easy path for many people who are in rural areas, like in Zim, most people actually live in rural areas. There's more people who are rural than urban. The same way they caught on to mobile money is the same way that they've easily caught on to things like WhatsApp. So in my perfect world, if we just needed to choose one app and make that one
24:21
zero-rated for life, I would make it WhatsApp. Because I feel that it has opportunity to hack a whole lot of things, particularly because of the way that you can communicate through it. It can be used during times of elections, for example. As a way of communicating, it can be used as an early warning system. You know, you can literally send messages, you can send text, you can send images,
24:41
you can send video, and more recently, now you can put documents onto it. So if I had a choice, that would be my one. I see Nanjira shaking her head. I'm going to disagree very strongly with my comrade here. The problem is, why not say a local startup in Zimbabwe that would do the same thing
25:01
or issue the same service? Now, I think for me here, it becomes very tricky because this is still a Western company, now owned by another behemoth, Facebook, that we are saying, yes, has great utility, absolutely. But the problem with that is, yes, it's an idea of a pragmatic approach, but why them and not somebody else? The problem with case by case is that,
25:22
actually, so far, I must say, with the idea of special zero-rated apps, it's all for doing good. I mean, Facebook said they're gonna make absolutely nothing from that. They're not gonna sell ads to people, right? So everyone, if that's the benchmark that they're doing some good, a lot of people who are trying to zero-rate their services, that's exactly what Wikipedia says.
25:42
Because they're not for profit, how can that be a bad thing? I think for me, the thing is, either zero-rate some, a whole portion, like a bit rate, equal bit rate, low bit rate, everybody accesses the internet at slower speeds, whether it's the full entirety of the internet, or we don't go down that path. Because who gets to decide who's the do-gooder
26:02
and who isn't? That's entering dangerous territory. We're asking governments to regulate, and that's asking governments to basically facilitate the interests. So if I'm better at lobbying, and you're not better at lobbying, and we're now telling governments, or regional bodies, or others, to decide between you and I, who gets to be zero-rated, or any other entity,
26:21
we're entering a dangerous territory. Okay, sorry, I came back. To this side. I want to go back to a few examples of the last things Nanjira mentioned, especially the lobbying capabilities. To the example of Chile, going back, the announcement that Wikipedia Zero would be accepted,
26:41
which, again, I insist it's not operating in Chile, but that it could be accepted, was after a meeting between the representatives of the Wikimedia Foundation and the regulator, the undersecretary of telecommunications. So it was pretty much the results of a meeting that was highly publicized. But then you see those levels, like, okay, they met with the regulator,
27:01
the regulator is very high in its support for Wikipedia, so of course they would say that it could be applied. So after that, we question which would be the criteria to allow that. But the lobbying capabilities, even if it's one innocent meeting, go higher and higher up. And in the case of Latin America, we saw several presidents of all countries
27:23
shaking hands with Mark Zuckerberg. We saw the president of Brazil wearing the jacket of Facebook at some point. And you can see the picture of that on the internet. So when you see that kind of handshaking on high levels, necessarily the decision
27:40
of which services will be zero-rated or will be allowed to be provided for free, and therefore making every other one infinitely more expensive, it's a decision that is, in the end, not necessarily dedicated through regulations, but highly politicized. So, since now I have the last word, yay.
28:02
I think it's, like from a human rights perspective, I don't really see how to actually access that, because there's always implications of what is threatened and how that's infringing. On the WhatsApp example, I would say, like, hey, let's go free software and use something that's actually properly encrypted. So go for a signal.
28:21
But then, like, what tells us that there's not gonna be a better app that then also needs to be zero-rated? Like, it's just a circle that we can't actually ever break if we make that decision once. So that case-by-case is very, very difficult. And I think, like, in the African context, for instance, where the US companies come in, like, is the regulator in Zimbabwe or in Kenya
28:43
in a position to decide on whether a foreign company gets in, or should we make that decision only in the national context, and then only national products get zero-rated? I just think, like, again, that's, even the case-by-case, apart from it being super resource-intense, like, I mean, who is gonna sit down and assess all those apps
29:01
and make sure that there's a proper analysis? That also takes quite a bit of administrative work, which I'm not sure every government has. I just, nor do we want that, exactly. There's other things that they should be more worried about. But apart from zero-rating, why not just call it equal-rating and, like, just have a data cap that's used for these apps for everything,
29:21
and I get to choose what I want to do so that I don't have to, because, for instance, I don't use WhatsApp, because I find it super annoying. So, like, give me my data, and I use Signal. But that's just, I think, a lot easier. And also, like, with the Indian case, it's very unfortunate that we don't have anyone who can actually share the successes of India with us. But they actually mentioned that the thing that is okay
29:42
and that they can access case-by-case is equal-rating. Like, yes, if there's data for everyone, you wanna provide that as an ISP, fine. But anything that's discriminatory, and it always is, if you zero-rate one service, is not acceptable. And I think that's a super great way forward, and I can only hope that other countries will follow suit.
30:01
I still have a thought on that. I've gotta come back and defend my WhatsApp theory. Here's a thought. Now, if you read up on how it happened in Zimbabwe for them to end up bundling things like WhatsApp, it's not because they offered them first. They literally just followed the trends because we're asking ourselves, so who gets to decide? It's the people. They just saw where people were going,
30:21
and they said, look, we see where you're going, we see your vision, we're coming with you, and we make a bit of money while we're doing it. And frankly, the typical person, because we are speaking about case-by-case here, would not mind paying less by paying for a WhatsApp bundle instead of actually getting equal rating in that case. However, I'm still with you friends
30:41
when it comes to the equal rating. That's a good starting point, but I'm seeing in places where operators have seen that people truly are making great use of a particular app, and they offer it as a product that can help people at a lower cost than probably what equal rating would have been. I say, why not? I'm now wondering if you're a lobbyist for one of the telcos.
31:02
All right, disclaimer, I pay for all of my internet this whole time. It's just that in the case of my country, really, all of those bundles did really come because they saw where people were taking their traffic to, and they literally just followed. So they made it easy for us. But however, I'm still with you
31:21
when it comes to equal rating, because I believe the normal argument with telcos is to say, we've invested so much in infrastructure, you can't just come in here and say, we can't zero rate this person if they are willing to pay. We need to get back our investment or something like that. I still feel equal rating is the best way. It's the same across the board, only also with the telcos. They're really slinging mud on the wall
31:40
and hoping something sticks. Because in Kenya, for instance, the same regulator that zero rates Facebook and WhatsApp is trying to have them regulated, voice over IP regulated. So it's a very schizophrenic thing. And at the end of the day, could I, the thing is, even if it's WhatsApp, or say like, there's a middle person there
32:00
who has so much by way of data, and what's the alternative if I want choice? If I want choice, and that's the only option, where do I go and at what cost? And this is where the problem, where it may look good on that value, and yes, I've heard very many government officials say that, I mean, what does it matter? But what choice here, if I have to opt out,
32:22
what do I opt out to? Is it bad that I start sending grievance again? Smoke signals, you know? That's where that thing for me becomes very political and very worrying. Even if there's a demand factor, yes, we all use WhatsApp, or many of us use WhatsApp, except Kathleen here.
32:40
I think she's the only person at this conference I know who doesn't use WhatsApp. But the choice factor. I think here we still talk about freedoms, and maybe I'm hacking the question and saying, the thing is here also we talk about freedom, and internet freedom, and what worries me, and the message that I keep carrying across is, freedom is being taken to mean free, at no cost.
33:01
Especially for people in the developing world. This notion of bringing free internet is saying free at no cost, but taking away the freedom. Freedom of choice, freedom to express yourself really, because if there are certain platforms, who's to say somebody, there's not a bigger man somewhere, determining which are the big five. I'm just saying.
33:21
So, you know. Maybe I should just end by saying this, before someone throws it at me, because they'll really then push me out of the argument. They actually, we're talking about hacking in Zim, because WhatsApp is so cheap and easy to get, because there's bundles for it. We also have a WhatsApp bot now that's got BOT, which will actually hack within WhatsApp,
33:41
so there's certain words you can actually put in, and you can use WhatsApp as a search engine. Inside WhatsApp, that's how fantastic we are as Bobwins. But it's really originated from some Indian guys, and they actually literally can be able to use WhatsApp as a search place, you can use it to access some quizzes,
34:01
to access some games, and a whole lot of interesting things. And I think it comes back to what you've just been saying, Nanjira, to say, ultimately, you know, people do also want the freedom to do more than WhatsApp, and if people are hacking inside their WhatsApp handle, that should be used as an indicator. They want more. If I may add one thing that comes up with what Nanjira and Kudzai have just said, to me, that also raises a lot of privacy concerns,
34:21
actually, if we're in those apps, because they have, it's not just not free as in freedom of choice, it's also not free as in they are gaining something from the fact that everyone is using that, and from a privacy perspective, that is really, really scary. And like, we just, I mean, the EU data protection law, to bring it to the EU context just once more,
34:42
actually says that, A, customers have to have informed consent, so I need to know what exactly is gathered about me, which data is collected, how long it's stored, how it's processed. Do we know that with Free Basics? Do we know that with any of those apps in the context of zero rating? I'm not so sure. The other thing is that the regulation,
35:01
the data protection regulation also says that there needs to be an alternative, because that's the only way that we can make sure that people are informed and actually can give consent to something, because if you only have one choice, there's like, consent is meaningless. So that, again, and that is because that's the only way to protect your privacy,
35:21
if you are in control of your data. And I think a lot of this is actually undermined with that discussion of, is that one app zero rated? Even if we hack it, it's still on this app, and the data still flows to the same corporation, and that's just not good. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I would love to go a little bit deeper into the whole privacy debate and also Internet freedom.
35:43
However, we are running a little bit out of time, so I would love to know from you what kind of implications do you see for policy makers regarding this aspect? Do you have any concrete recommendations? What do we need? Do we need a global standard? How can we go on, and how can we also work
36:01
with civil society together? How can we inspire action, and what needs to be done? Okay. Big question. The message I've been working with policy makers in Africa and telling them, look, first and foremost, inform yourself. Inform yourself about the economics of it and the sociopolitical implications, first and foremost.
36:20
The second thing is we need to demand more research, and there's so much more research that needs to happen here to inform. We need empirical evidence. So you have, for instance, with advancement of free basics in Africa, for example, the only statistic, the only reference point we have is from Facebook itself that within 30 days, most users then graduate to the full Internet.
36:43
Yet, when you really, really dig deep and wring their hands and really wring Facebook's hands, they do inform that sometimes it's mostly the same people who have already been using the Internet who are using free basics when you run out of bundles, and maybe it's too late to go out and buy air time. So we don't have data.
37:01
And with something that is being pushed, put forth as a developmental agenda, if we do not have the statistics and we don't have research, and as a researcher, I don't have access to that empirical evidence, I'm worried. And so I think, for me, it's research, research, research, and our policy makers need to inform themselves, first and foremost. I don't want it to be a biased angle.
37:21
I want to be able to have that conversation with someone from Facebook, Wikipedia Zero, everyone in the same room, but we're making our case to make informed, you know, an informed point of view about what we're trying to do here. But most importantly, oh yeah, one other thing. Governments in Africa right now have been doing this thing called the Universal Service Access Fund,
37:41
or some variation of it. And this is where all these actors are supposed to put in money, a percentage of their gross income towards actually advancing internet in its entirety. Why don't we just let that work? And that is a whole issue of political will, and it's a very touchy issue,
38:01
but I think that approach still needs to be given credence. And so I'd rather we still keep pushing for advancing the internet in its entirety, and to make it more affordable so that we stop having this notion that free means no cost for the poor people of the global south who have been connected because of the next billion, and some really messy stuff there.
38:21
But yeah. Apart from research, I totally agree, but research also needs to be funded. And for funding from certain sites to come, you also need political will. Like, we had that over the last three days, people have been saying, like, who run the world? Abs, well, you know, if there's an app for political will, I think the problem would have been solved already. It's not, but that is very important.
38:42
How do we do that? Like, how do we get people to be excited about this? Talk to your governments, be engaged in the discussion, open the dialogue. I think as long as we don't keep making that point and bringing those arguments home and making sure that everyone's at the table, because it is a very complex topic,
39:00
and there's a lot of things and a lot of concerns to be heard, we're not getting anywhere. And I think broadening that dialogue apart from having data to support the arguments that we're bringing in those conversations is very, very important, because otherwise it's just this, well, someone is already providing access, so why should I be engaged? That's like, you know, even if you wanna do good, does it mean that you may be aware
39:21
of all the other things that are happening? Like with development agencies, for instance, when they say like, oh, but there's a wifi provider, the only thing is you have to give up your biometric data to log onto the data. Great, how about data protection? There's so many aspects to this, so just make sure that all the experts are at the table and for that it needs every one of us to be involved.
39:42
Not just the experts, but the interested parties that might not really be experts, but have an interest, that have a stake in this argument. Because when we're defending like the value of not having just zero-rated apps or services here and there, and what we are trying to push forward is the value of the full internet. So that's something that might require some support,
40:02
but that's what civil society groups are supposed to do as well. Not just saying how bad it is that you people have free WhatsApp, but on the contrary, how important it is that the internet is valued as this broader thing. I do support completely, obviously,
40:21
the idea of the need for more information on this. The policy implications are not just about what we need to do, but also about what this means in terms of the political arguments as well. Knowing that the idea of this northern, I'd rather say northern than western corporations
40:41
are providing all this kind of services, and they are expanding their user base, and they're pretty much doing what other northern companies have done throughout history in continents like Africa, like Asia, like Latin America, where they have been
41:01
expanding their user base, and any possible regulatory action will be only a reaction when the market is already set. So these are very political arguments that we need to take into account, and we need to also provide the arguments to our constituencies, to our audiences,
41:20
and to, obviously, our policymakers in order to provide recommendations for the best possible solutions that include the interests of the people who want to keep using the services, but also the interests of our entrepreneurs, our programmers, and everyone who is part of the digital economy, which is such a big part
41:43
of the discourse in the developing world. I might just be to say, I think it's important that policymakers go back to basics, and by basics, I speak of, no, no. Oh, God. I'll take that again. I think it's important for policymakers to go back to the basics, nothing free there,
42:02
and that would be number one, that they take account of public interest, which is what their policies about managing how people get certain things, but also take account of the very basic thing of why the internet itself exists. So whatever policy is coming up must still safeguard
42:21
the fact that the internet is, let me say this loosely, because it will work probably for those that are in the global south, but loosely, we could call the internet as a means of production. Everybody must have access to some kind of means of production, and then what they build from it is really up to them. So I think that must be the thinking that comes into it, to say the very essence of the internet itself
42:42
must always supersede the interests that are found by the different players, and it must come down to common interest. How can it best help people at large? Yeah, great. You already said we have to open up a dialogue, and that's what I would like to do now.
43:02
Are there any questions from the audience, comments? Don't be shy, people. Come on. Or contentions. I think this is a really fascinating conversation,
43:23
and depending on where you are, you may have different thoughts about it. Do you have any recommendations on resources about where these kind of conversations that are happening here on stage are happening on forums, or is there any good source that's kind of aggregating these different points for activists that may be trying to explain
43:42
this issue to their communities? I can just say that in a German context, for instance, the GITs, which is the German Development Agency, they're actually open to this conversation because they're very engaged in the whole right to access debate, and that's the same for the development aid ministry. Otherwise, I would say usually
44:00
it depends on where you are. Often it's the ICT ministry, but it's not so hard to actually get in touch with your lawmakers if you're interested in that. So you get, but you have to seek them out, and it's not like, they're not going to be here per se if they're not invited, because it's not the natural entry point. So there needs to be an effort from both sides, I would say. It's not per se easy, but it's definitely possible.
44:24
But yeah, I mean, it takes time, and also the question is like, who has the resources to commit that sort of time? Another entry point where this is happening is internationally, so there's a lot of fora in meetings where this conversation is taking place, where also policymakers go.
44:40
Like I remember from my time in the foreign office, I participated in so many conferences. That was always an issue, and yes, I did take it back home, but then again, how do you get the funding to actually participate in those conferences? But if you're interested, there's a lot of foundations out there who can help, and how we can actually make sure that remote access, for instance, to participate can get better is a huge issue
45:01
and a question that we haven't actually answered yet. Very quickly, the work by the Alliance for Affordable Internet is really useful around this. I don't know why Katlinden mentioned that she's just published a paper around the issue. So we're all writing and really trying to put forth these arguments in more eloquent English words,
45:23
like buzzwords, so that they're right. And so I think on this, actually on this platform, there are a lot of people here who've already written, so it's a good question about where we can aggregate that and make a concerted effort. But there are some scattered resources all over the internet, the free, the full entire internet, open access unfettered.
45:41
Yeah, I was just gonna weigh in and say, I think Mozilla as well do a really brilliant job of making, particularly the advocacy arm, they do make a brilliant case. They can pitch at whatever level, at the very technical level, but they also have programs that they run at simple community meetups as well. So those are a very good source of getting resources, and I know they do engage a lot on these issues.
46:03
Yeah, there are some campaigns that have happened regarding the regulations in the EU, like save the internet, the same thing for India. There have been campaigns, there is discussion, there is the Alliance for Affordable Internet, and all those venues and conferences where this kind of things are discussed in English.
46:23
But it's always important to go back to your local context and to contact your own constituency and your own policy makers and speak in a language, in a language, like literally a language that they can understand and to provide the arguments and not just leave them in the hands of the global civil society that speaks in English.
46:43
Can I just weigh in on something that you said, which I think is extremely important, so let me reiterate. I think the community and the localization of these issues is extremely important. In our own experience in ZIM, you'd find if you bring in the guys from the Ministry of ICT, they literally don't know what net neutrality is, and this is a whole director in charge of internet and other things.
47:02
No idea, so I do believe that there is scope also to try and actually engage at those levels, and it can make a difference. Yes, hi, my name is Norman, I'm a policy advisor to the German development ministry. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
47:22
I have a question, like just to be bold, what would you recommend, and how should I do my job, for example, should we fight zero rating products and kind of fight them to not have them anymore, or should we be more moderate, in particular when we have voices that say, let's look for regulations, for example,
47:41
of how to regulate them? Honest answer, do not incentivize it. From a human rights perspective, don't do it. Provide, like fund the free software, support the open source community, make sure that these tools can actually be reproduced rather than duplicated, because that's a waste of money, and apart from that, I mean, all our development aid work
48:02
is always from a human rights perspective. I don't think that any zero rated incentive should ever be supported from that perspective, but listen to the people here, and I think it's great that you're here, so that conversation taking it forward is very important, but like, blunt answer, do not support it. Fund the research instead, fund the research instead.
48:23
I mean, it's really true, and I know that for most international development organizations, that would be a natural next step with probably work you've been doing with governments in our context, but I would really dissuade against the notion of, I don't know if I wanna call it developmentalism,
48:42
the same trope that we've seen with Africa and Latin America, this time with the internet is the last public common good I feel that we can actually get on an equal footing. The biggest risk you face with probably supporting that kind of work is actually perpetuating the very divides we're trying to close up, so that's the best thing I'd say
49:01
is just fund the research, encourage for more dialogue. In fact, please invite your peers for discussions like these, bring them to the table, because I can't bring them to the table, you can. Thanks, I think that was
49:21
a really fascinating conversation, and I mean, I would like to ask a couple of questions. A couple of things, one is, you know, research. I think that's very important, but I mean, you mentioned your mother who uses WhatsApp. I mean, your mother wouldn't be interested in the result of the research,
49:41
she probably would be interested in keeping WhatsApp as a free source, so what's actually going to happen when the legislation like in Zimbabwe really bans, you know, zero-rated WhatsApp? Wouldn't there be an outcry in the population? And also the question would be, what's the alternative?
50:02
I mean, you said it would be great if there would be a local development, you know, as an alternative to WhatsApp or Facebook. In South Africa, there was Mixit, which was a local alternative, but it's like a cheap version of Facebook, so, and they stopped their services,
50:21
which is, you know, a pity, but maybe that's the cause of time, so do you think there is a real possibility that there will ever be a local developed alternative, which is not, you know, as bad in collecting data as Facebook is?
50:43
Okay, well, it's my mother, so I'm gonna go first. Okay, next time, mention your own mother, okay? Well, thank you for that, and I think you do raise a brilliant thought pattern. I think I'll still come back to the fact that what I believe is WhatsApp is just but an app, but what I want my mom and other moms like her
51:01
and mothers around the world to have is equal rating. They must have access to the internet and probably all of it. I suspect that she only loves it because that's all she's ever seen, you know, of it, or that's the easiest she's seen, but if I were to let her know, because my mom is a teacher, the kind of, and she's, her retirement plan is a preschool,
51:21
if she could see all the resources of pictures and video she could get of other kindergartens around the world, I'm sure she probably may change her feeling, and you brought in the issue of Mixit, which also closed down. I think because I'm in the startup space, I did kind of follow some of that, and I mean, a group where one of the founders actually shared the fact that they did fail
51:40
to compete with the homos like WhatsApp, and there, I somewhat disagree with Nanjira and say, for me, my feeling is if WhatsApp has gone ahead and they've done well, if a local guy doesn't develop something that does what WhatsApp can do, there's no point fixing it if it's not broken. It's working, so if they build something that works better than WhatsApp,
52:00
by all means, we'll support them, you know, power to the people, but if they don't, we'll use what is available, because after all's been said and done, as a startup yourself, you know, given an opportunity that is equal, you should build something that can be able to compete all by itself, and not compete only because someone has given it a leg up. And just to add to that, will there ever be an alternative?
52:20
We won't find out if WhatsApp is zero rated, because there is no incentive to build something else. So if we don't have anything else, fine, but the thing is, we need to have the choice. If everyone chooses WhatsApp, that's fine, but give them a choice, and with zero rating, they don't have it, and that's the problem. And with equal rating, at least, you know,
52:40
you give other startups the opportunity and the chance to build something else, and I would say there's so much talent out there, it is definitely possible, like I'm an idealist, I do have hope, there is alternatives. It's a network effect, right? So once enough people use it, and also governments can regulate certain things, so we can make sure that some of the apps
53:01
that currently exist do respect data protection, do respect our privacy, and don't store and gather data, that is not necessary. That's also in the hands of the regulator, so there's a lot of things that we can do, it's not just about zero rating an app. I mean, think of it this way, do you want to live in a world where one company
53:21
yields so much power about the things used on the internet, because that's exactly what we're working towards. This centralization of the web, here when we talk about alternatives, not necessarily that a local alternative will necessarily do good, but it's exactly what Kathleen has said, it's the fact that we should have that space, that internet that created Facebook, that internet that enabled WhatsApp to come to exist,
53:41
that must be the same internet that, you know, that other entrepreneur that we are housing in all the hubs elsewhere should be able to make. So it's a bit dangerous to have one company that benefited from a free, full, open internet trying to close it down. Yeah, and it's not something that is only related to zero rating, because it existed before,
54:02
and it existed with the fact that, in many cases, Facebook is very popular, and it turns out that many web developers started getting less jobs because people were starting to create Facebook pages for their products, and companies, and startups, and news sites, and blogs, and everything,
54:20
just on a Facebook page, because it looks nice, and everyone will go to the Facebook page. It's something that needs a broader discussion about the things that we want for our internet, and of course, when we see that there is money involved in pulsing some services instead of others, the discussion gets a bit harder,
54:41
but it's a discussion that is worth having, definitely. All right, I think time is almost up. We have five minutes left. If there's last question over there.
55:00
So short answers, no. It's more of a comment. I don't use WhatsApp either. So there are two people, yeah, not to make it. It's mostly, I'm afraid to sound a negative note on these big monopolies that we have
55:23
are created for a reason, and it's because people like to be where their friends are and this is always going to happen, and the companies that have the computing power to run these massive networks are always going to be the ones that are going to be in a better position
55:40
to push their tools. There is a reason why everyone is on Facebook, because their friends are on Facebook. So I'm asking, what else can we do other than the solutions that you're making, maybe to break this up in a more bottom-up way? I've been thinking about this a long time,
56:02
and I have no idea how to do it. Please, save us. I don't think we can save you, but actually, one thing that I really like about the new data protection regulation is that there's a class that allows you to take all your data, so you can, I'm not sure what the exact term is, but you can actually have the right,
56:22
when you want to leave Facebook, to download all your data, and it needs to be uploadable to whichever platform you choose afterwards. We have no idea how that's going to be implemented yet, but it's a right, so let's start suing for it and make sure that companies have to provide the code that makes it possible to transfer your data,
56:40
because that is actually going to be an amazing tool to break up silos, because I'm not going to lose all my pictures of my friends. I can take them to the next platform. That's awesome. I really love that, and I really want to see that principle being implemented, and it's law now, so I really can't wait for the next two years and then afterwards to start seeing that being implemented.
57:00
That's great. Portability, and I don't think the network effect is always going to be at play, but the fact that what we're speaking about here is that we just want the Internet to still have that room for other spaces for us to migrate to, because I think it's a dangerously scary world when it's one company that still builds the next app,
57:21
so you can see, for instance, right now with the Snapchat generation, they're bypassing Facebook altogether, right, and they will create their own network effect there, but Snapchat only is able to exist because it's a free, open Internet, so that's the baseline we're talking about. We must protect that baseline, so it's a concerted effort. All lovers of WhatsApp can still love WhatsApp.
57:41
Please love your WhatsApp, but love it while supporting a free and open Internet. Please love it. It's so important. We give thanks for your love for it, but the free and open Internet must be the baseline. Yeah, and I'm just going to say the last thing and say it's a good thing that what used to be called Internet.org, because of conversations like this,
58:01
they had to change that name to Free Basics because Facebook is not the Internet. Yeah, just to add to that, the free, open Internet and the fact that Facebook had to change because of this pressure, those are good things, and the fact that the network effect exists, it will allow us to fight also back. You have to use Signal to speak to Kathleen, actually.
58:23
That's not an exaggeration. So, to protect the baseline is necessary, but it's also understood as protecting our rights as users. I mean, it's awesome that you have such rules here in Europe but in the third world, we do not have such things. We wish we had something half as good,
58:41
but we still can't push for those. It's all about our ability to not just dedicate ourselves to ICT policy because we are concerned about this and this, but the underlying values and the underlying human rights that are involved in this kind of decisions and how this is not just about market value or just competition about services, but all the underlying ideas
59:01
and the human rights implications of what we do without technology is, after all, an extension of our lives in general. It's not just a separate issue. Great. So, let's fight for free and open internet. Thank you so much. It's an important... Yeah. Please come talk to us.
59:25
It's an important issue, and we will be around here. We will not zero-rate the conversations.